The Realities of Freelancing with Philosophy Adjunct Turned Copywriter Chris Collins

In this episode of Teachers make the Leap, hosts Kristin and Hillary talk with with Chris Collins, a philosophy PhD and former adjunct instructor turned freelance copywriter. 
Together, Chris, Kristin, and Hillary explore the realities of going freelance after working in the traditional academia and secondary education setting.

Key Takeaways:

• Transitioning Skills: Chris’s background in philosophy and his love for writing helped him carve a niche in copywriting for B2B SaaS brands.
• Mindset Shift: Teachers often need a significant shift in mindset about the value of their time and work when transitioning to freelancing.
• Money Mindset: Chris acknowledges the importance of overcoming preconceived notions of what clients will pay, an extension of valuing one’s time.
• Sales Skills: A key skill gap for many teachers moving into freelancing is sales, a necessity for business success.
• Personal Management: Self-care, mental and physical health, and personal development are foundational for business success and cannot be overlooked.

Resources:

• Chris Collins LinkedIn Profile: [Search for Chris Collins on LinkedIn]
• Chris Collins Website: ChristopherCollins Co

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Transcript

0:04

Welcome to Teachers Make the Leap, a show that empowers educators to build online businesses they love and revolutionize the way work shows up in their lives. I'm your host, Kristen. And I'm your host, Hillary. We're two former teachers who have successfully made the leap from classroom to entrepreneurship. If you dream of finally leaving teaching to be able to make your own schedule and increase your earning potential, join us each week as we explore real ways to get there through online business.

Hillary: 0:34

Welcome to this episode of the teachers make the late podcast. We are so excited to chat with a special guest today. Chris Collins. Chris is a former philosophy professor and K through 12 math teacher turned conversion copywriter. Today, he helps growing B2B SaaS brands, which if you're not familiar with SaaS, that stands for software as a service. He helps them scale faster with strategic messaging based on data, not guesswork. Chris has worked with B2B and SaaS companies like Meadow, Canonical, Smart Panda Labs, and Swipe Guide. And you can find him on LinkedIn or on his website at ChristopherCollins. co, which we will also link to in the show notes. So Chris, we're so excited to have you on today.

Chris: 1:17

Oh, me too. Like, like, we're excited about this.

Kristin: 1:21

Chris, I have to say, I'm very excited to chat with you today. For our listeners who don't know, Chris and I are friends in the copywriter world, and we've kind of bumped elbows through a couple different communities, you might say, online. So I know a little bit about your journey, Chris, from teacher to Successful copywriter, but I'm so excited to really get into the nitty gritty with you and just kind of talk about your transition and the journey, what happened, what it was like, and what it's like now, for our listeners, I'd love to start off just by asking you a little bit about your background. Do you want to tell us about your experience teaching? What did you teach? What was that like for you?

Chris: 2:01

Yeah. Well, I mean, I've had two phases to my teaching career. I mean, the first was I was in academia. I did a PhD in philosophy. And then for a little bit after that, I was, a philosophy, instructor, not tenure track, but I, I taught philosophy full time. and I came out, right, like 2010, right after the economy had tanked. And so, my timing was like impeccable, you know, and, one thing that I sort of have realized in retrospect was something that I've, I think, done pretty well with my copywriting career I'm like, I need to, publish. I need to, write. Like I need to be building my visibility, I need to be putting my thoughts out there and when you are in academia, that is also critical, like by way of you know, publishing papers, going to conferences, building your professional credentials in retrospect, that is marketing and that is something I did not do at all, during my academic career. So it's a lesson I've retrospectively learned. From my marketing career, which has been quite quite interesting. so after that, I sort of had to figure out, oh, What am I going to do now? and then I just like, sort of bumped around for a while. Like, I had been. Interested in mental health. I worked with people with, chronic mental illness for a couple of years. quite honestly, I probably would have kept doing that except, I don't drive and it was a really tough, line of work to stay in, like, Without the ability to do that, and that was our sort of how I got into my 2nd career, which was like, oh, well, maybe teaching at the K 12 level would be something that would be interested in, you know, so I was like, do I was sort of like doing this thing where, like. I, I didn't know what to do after academia, if I could go back, I probably should have just like, been like, you've got a philosophy PhD. Just go make 300 K at McKinsey. Right? But like, I wasn't smart like that. Right? But I'm not, I'm kind of joking, but kind of not. Um, but, but no, but like I did teach for America and I taught for three years, uh, at the K 12 level after that, and um, yeah, that's kind of how I got to the, you know, actual, classroom teaching phase of my

Hillary: 4:02

Yeah, well, tell us a little bit more about kind of, because before we get into your business and how you started your business, I really want to know, like, what were the pressures in academia and in K through 12 teaching that were causing you to want to leave?

Chris: 4:15

Well, I was thinking about this before and I mean, like, it's, you know, when I think about it now, almost 10 years later, I'm, I'm sure I probably would have given you somewhat different answers. At the time, but I mean, I think, like, I was attracted to the idea of it a lot more than the actual doing of it. Right? for me, I had this sort of idea of what being classroom teacher was going to be like, and I probably thought it was going to be a very sort of like, you know, dead poet society. Mr. Holland's opus kind of experience. Right? Which, you know, I was just going to like, go in and like, Show these kids how the quadratic equation was going to like, lead them straight to a path of, uh, engineering and Caltech and whatever other, you know, like, like it was going to transform their lives. And I remember, like, there was a day I was trying to, like, talk this kid into, like, actually paying attention in class and he looks at me and he goes, it was like my first year. He goes, dude, it's not that serious. And he was right, what I did not understand was that, like, some of these kids, you just realistically, my love of the subject matter, you were just going to have to move heaven and earth to get that across to them. And so I loved working with students who are motivated, but. a lot of the kids I work with, we're just like, in a completely different world from me, like, completely different priorities. and we came from completely different worlds also. And for me to come in, and just be like, well, you know, here's why you need to learn to, Factor, binomials, like, who cares? So, I, I think that, it was, it was an uneasy fit, for me, and, you know, when I got into it and into the realities of it, and I think this is probably something that, that your listeners probably would understand. Right? Like, the realities of teaching you're constantly, trying to keep up with, submitting your lesson plans by Friday. and this is like a very different world than. What my parents, who are both teachers were in, You know, you've got to get your grades in into the gradebook. So, everybody can see them. It's not like that. You just have to get things graded. There's this, like, pressure for transparency that didn't used to be there. You're in constant meetings. Like, you know, it's not just that you have to manage your classroom. You got to make sure that all the parents are happy to. And so there's this whole set of pressures on teachers. you're in this pressure cooker that I, I don't think that people outside the profession understand and it's gotten far worse than it was even when I was in there. so it just ended up, it was like, it just felt like a 24 7 job to me. And I think it was just way too much effort for way too little pay.

Kristin: 6:41

I really do want to double back to something you said, Chris, which is actually not something we talk too much about on the show, but it just rings. So true for me, which is. When you have such a love for a subject matter and your perception of the teaching job is, I'm going to walk into a classroom and I'm going to get to talk about this subject matter with these students who really also, we're going to love this subject matter. And we're going to have these really enlightening conversations about it. That expectation is almost on a daily basis. Just something that doesn't. come to fruition, right? Because the reality is there's a few handful fulls of students, probably in each class that have a fire for the thing that you're teaching. And the majority of students are just there to get through the day and and get the credits. And I, I understand that I was 18, 19, 20 once as well, you know, but that became for me the part of the job that was. Extremely, uh, hard and, and just let me led me right into burnout, which was that I was trying to teach people about this thing that I really cared about for me. That was creative writing and poetry for you. That was philosophy and and that energy was not matched in my classrooms. Uh, a lot, which is It's hard.

Chris: 7:56

I would say you're, but you are a service provider. When I went into it, I had sort of a more traditional view of teaching kind of like, like I said, both of my parents were 40 year teachers, And so I had sort of taken from them this view of, like, what the teaching profession was, and by the time I had gotten into the classroom, it was a lot more like, You're here to make sure that my kid passes this class and gets at least a B and if you didn't that's on you. And so, I think that you have those, like, really motivated students. Right? But outside of that, everybody else they want the result that they're looking for. And so, Like, I said, it's like a pressure cooker and I can remember. A number of times when I sort of got that flipped in my head and I didn't understand that, my job was to be managing those expectations. So, yeah, like, I, I just think things have changed from the way that I grew up thinking about them and, yeah, it's, it wasn't, it wasn't the right, the right field for me, for sure.

Kristin: 8:58

And so to pick up where we left off, you were testing things out in the philosophy academia world and department. You were testing things out in the K through 12 math department. What was the transition like for you from the teaching profession to freelancing? I know you might have had Yeah. Uh, kind of a unique trajectory from teaching to freelancing. Can you take us through what that looked like

Chris: 9:21

yeah, absolutely. So when I, I actually didn't start out thinking that I was going to even. Start a business, when I left teaching,, I'd been doing it for 3 years and I was just thinking, I just need a normal. Boring office job. That was like my panacea at that point. It was like, let's let's just get out of the classroom. Like, let's get a normal job where I can just go to the office and come home like, let's just get a stable paycheck. That's not going to stress me out. Right. but I quickly found that it was just incredibly boring so I was working at a professional association, like You know, boring cubicle office job, but what ended up being good about it was like, I had a ton of free time and so I started being like, okay, well, I don't think I'm going to be here forever, but I started thinking about, maybe I could start my own thing. Maybe I could, maybe I could build my own thing on the side. and that was when I discovered that copywriting was a thing. and started, picking up freelance gigs and sort of, I think during 2019, slowly growing my business into. Something that could be, stable and it took about 2 years, uh, through 2019 and 2020, to get it to the place where I was making more than what I was making at my job. And that was sort of my benchmark was like, okay, I don't want to leave until I'm making more than what I'm making currently. but yeah, I think instead of like just quitting. And just being like, okay, let's go having a transitional job. That was like very low maintenance. I think that that was like a good method for me

Hillary: 10:49

I think that's actually a really great hack. So I'm glad that you brought that up because I know a lot of teachers that we've talked to are worried about how they can start to build a freelance business on the side while they're still teaching these incredibly demanding teaching jobs. And so I kind of love that idea of using a transition job that, you know, you're not going to be in forever, but it's just a stepping stone to what you really want. I think that's really smart. I can relate. I actually, in between my two, like, big teaching stints that I had, I also worked. A 9 to 5 office job, and I really thought, you know, I was coming before I started teaching. I served tables and I bartended and things like that. And so, to me, also, like, this 9 to 5 office job, just it sounded like it was going to be so cushy and just easy. And like, I'm going to love this. I don't have to take work. Yeah, I don't have to take work home with me, and I have never been more depressed in my entire life. I mean, it was just so hard to come home every night, have a few hours and then go back. I personally, if it for me, if it was between teaching and the 9 to 5 office job, like, I would take teaching over that as hard as it was over the 9 to 5 office job. of course, we know that there is this 3rd option to work for yourself. And so I would love to hear, you know, you said it took you about 2 years to kind of ramp up to where you would replaced your income with your freelance business. What what has that transition been like? From that emotional perspective, I suppose, knowing that teaching wasn't giving you what you wanted, the nine to five job wasn't giving you what you wanted. What has it been like since then working for yourself?

Chris: 12:26

Well, I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, it's just been like the most wonderful thing in the world. it's, it's work and, you know, any job is going to come with some challenges, right? I had gotten to a place of. I think a level of self knowledge at the last job that I was at where I was like, um, there's this, there's this, um, I can't think of the guy's name, like, it was this comedy sketch that I had seen online he's like, I'm the last guy you want to see in a break room. Like, I just so discord in the office. Like, I'll just stand there You know, I'll be like, this company doesn't care about you. And like, I, I wish I could remember the name of the guy. it was, it was a hilarious sketch, but it really resonated with me because I was like, you know, that just was very true to my experience. it's very hard for me to like, really buy into a company culture. I felt like both of the schools that I had been at. And at the company that I worked for, like, they sort of felt like they were like, really mission driven and they wanted everybody to be a good culture fit and buy it to the mission. And I just was like, come on, dude, It's a job, without getting too deep into it, I, I think I brought a healthy degree of skepticism to the company culture. And so, what I was sort of learning about myself through the experiences was it was a better fit for me to, like, be working on my own. I think that what I just discovered about myself from all of my job experiences was, that I just brought a lot of sort of like skepticism and not wanting to like buy into company culture and that was like, it was hard for me to be like a good culture fit. but what I did enjoy was. sort of jumping from project to project to project, you know, in a situation where, like, I'm running my own thing, but I have a lot of different clients who are really cool. Like, right now, I have several and all of them. I'm like, oh, I'm working with this great client. Who's in the cannabis industry and I'm working with this great client. Who's. Helping make conferences really profitable. And I'm working with this great client. Who's in the growth equity space. that's really interesting to me,

Hillary: 14:20

I wanted to talk about, you know, like, what has it been like kind of emotionally and, and a good fit for your life. And I think that you just do a really good job of. I'm talking about the reality of it because you're right. Work is work and work is going to be work no matter what. And that's also okay. Um, I think that Kristen and I both very much had that experience as well. When we started our businesses, of course, there were still periods of, of challenge and there were periods of, I don't want to say burnout, but periods where it felt like work and not everything was exciting and rosy and like. You know, and, and that's just the reality I think of any work that you do. And it's about finding the work that lights you up the most compared to all the other work, At least that's been true for me. I don't, I don't have to have work. I'll, I know I'll never find work that is like, I would be so happy doing it day in and day out every single day for the rest of my life, but there is work that I would much rather do compared to other types of work

Chris: 15:16

yeah, I think that's right and to your point, I think that nobody should go in thinking that like, oh, this is just going to be so much easier than teaching. like, money's just going to rain down from the skies. And I don't know if people do think that, but Like you're probably going to go through some times when you have to push through some significant amounts of stress, everybody, I know who's successful has gone through all of that. yeah, it comes with its own set of challenges,

Kristin: 15:40

this is something I really relate to Chris as well, which is I remember in my last year inside the classroom and I had so many papers to grade, so many papers to grade on like a bi weekly basis. There was like a hundred of them. And I, like most teachers was a teacher who really wanted to be very good at my job. It was important to me to. do it right. It was important for me to get it right, especially with grading and feedback and things like that. So it was just a really time consuming piece of my job and it started to feel a little bit like I was expected to just produce, produce, produce, produce, produce, and it was more important that I got through grading rather than. You know, like, really thoughtfully gave feedback to students and that started to bother me a lot. This piece. Of what you were talking about really resonates, which is I really like working for myself because the projects can vary the tasks kind of vary and there's a creativity laden in that and an interesting this laden into that that I think I was missing in some of those latter years in the classroom for me, where I was just really trying to hit metrics. and they were somebody else's metrics. They weren't even mine. So I really relate to what you were talking about there.

Chris: 16:52

I do think to that point, like, I remember the 1st project I'd ever did and the very, very 1st project was like, this woman who was running a sleep consultancy for like new moms. and she had like she was teaching people to toilet train their babies. And so it was like, I need a bunch of articles on how to potty train your kid. I didn't know anything about that, but she was like, I will pay you 30 an article. To write articles about potty training your kid. And I was like, a gigs a gig, but I was saying that first year particularly, I was doing like a lot of work, that was criminally underpaid and to your point, not that dissimilar from factory work, Like you're just getting in reps, right? I think once you have sort of progressed. things can get really fun and interesting. And and I think you kind of want to be trying to move yourself in that direction. Sooner rather than later, because you can't there are plenty of people who, Stay stuck in that lower level, like, grunt work kind of stuff, even years into running a business.

Hillary: 17:51

Yeah, that, that brings up such a good point. Is that you have to be careful in your freelance business about. Constantly trying to improve and Increase the rates that you can charge and things like that, because you don't want to get stuck in the cycle of feeling like you're just producing, producing, producing for very little in return again, because I think that's what's something that so many teachers. Feel and to then try to go into business for yourself and kind of recreate that scenario can be really, really defeating. So I think it was super important to kind of bring that to the forefront. And, yeah, just be careful about how you think about your pricing and how much you can earn and what value you're bringing to the table and things like that. So I'd love to hear you tell us a little bit more about kind of how you broke free because to your point, a lot of people don't break free. From that cycle, and so what are some things that you did to make sure that wasn't going to be you?

Chris: 18:52

I remember the first time that I did like a really big project. I, I brought in my first white paper and this was in like mid 2019 and this was with a company that was. Not a like, um, Gartner, but it was like on that level, like it was very, a very well known company in the compliance space. I didn't know that at the time. And I got on the phone with them and they were like, we need a 3000 word white paper. They had seen my samples. They're like, what would you charge for that? And I was like 250 and yeah, see, right, exactly. Like I had no idea what writing should cost at that point. And they, the guy, there was like a long pause on the other end of the phone. And the guy goes, okay, he came back to the next year and did another one for more than 10 times that amount of money. like, you know, I think he felt so bad that he had like conned me out of basically like, you know, several thousand dollars. Right. But the next year. I pitched an article to sumo and that was my first, cold pitch article that I had pitched. And that was the 1st thing I had sold for 4 figures. Right? Like, it's a progression. you, you sort of like, want to be consistently, like, upping your rates. And I think for me, even I've been quite slow to increase my rates. Compared with, other people along the way, that I've met who have been very aggressive about pushing them up. I mean, I can think of a couple of people I know who have been very fast to raise their rates. Uh, I think a lot of that and this is something that I've learned, more recently, I think a lot of that has to do with with your money mindset. so, so to sort of, like, put that in, like, a bigger. Perspective, it's easy to say, oh, well, you should be always raising your rates. But I think that everybody sort of has, Sort of background assumptions about what a client is willing to pay or what a project could be worth. Right? Like, if you take that 1st example, I gave you, it just would never have. I would never have imagined that, you know, you could sell 3000 words of writing for you know, 5 or 6 or 8000 dollars. I would just have been like, that's not possible at that point. Right? I would just like, not have believed that. and so I think. being realistic about like what your money mindset is are you a person who has some limitations around what you think things should cost? Or are you a person who has been around a lot of people who do business and you are comfortable charging higher rates? I think that's an important thing to understand about yourself. So,

Kristin: 21:23

Chris, I think this is a really interesting place to kind of dive in a little bit more, not even just about money mindset in particular, but I guess I'm curious to hear you talk about or think through what mindset shifts you went through from the classroom, Chris to freelancer, Chris, who's doing really well, like what had to change in your thinking?

Chris: 21:43

I have one off the top of my head, but I bet like, it's the same for you guys. I don't know. I'm just curious what you would say yours has been.

Kristin: 21:51

My biggest mindset shift?

Chris: 21:52

Yeah,

Kristin: 21:53

I'm not sure if it will be the same, but, I think the biggest mindset shift for me from my classroom experience to my freelancer experience really is the value of my time. It is as a classroom teacher. I was thinking to myself, my time is not and this wasn't even a conscious thought. It's just what I was taught in the environment I was in, which was I don't get paid a lot to do A lot to do a ton of hours of work. So my my time must not be worth very much. And it was very hard for me to evolve out of that to a space where I am now, which is basically, like, I want to make sure that my time is valued on in a monetary sense.

Chris: 22:35

100%. That is exactly what I was going to say. And I think that's still years later. That is still something that I am continuing to work through. I think it's something I've made. A significant amount of progress on, but when you think about, like, every year that I was teaching, like, in principle, all of your time is available for grading, responding to texts, you know, going to meetings, whatever. I, I really did not have a work life boundary. At all. And, you know, even now, sort of like setting boundaries around tasks and being like, okay, I need to get this done in X amount of time. Like, I can't let this bleed into, like, my whole afternoon or whatever, you know, or being conscious about tracking how long tasks take so that I, I get a reasonable hourly rate for the projects that I'm doing, like, those kinds of things are, are still a work in progress for me, but I definitely think teaching kind of inculcates into you this idea that, just whatever time you have you can be on the clock and that's fine.

Hillary: 23:35

You know what else teaching does is it tells you what you do is so valuable. Everyone says that, you know, what teachers do is so valuable and yet. The monetary compensation is so low, so I think that's just another layer to this mindset shift because I've, of course, had to make the same mindset shift of, like, my, my work is valuable, but it's also like, valuable in a monetary sense. Right? Like, I think that's just such a hard shift to make. I, like, you, Chris have been working on this particular mindset shift for years and years and still feel like it's something that comes up for me quite often.

Chris: 24:12

That's fascinating um, and I've recently gone through a process of like, really trying to be more Intentional about charging what I think my work is worth and I've been surprised to find I'm not getting pushback. Like, I thought I would, but before I would just be like, oh, there's no way people will pay this much money. Because to your point, I just assumed, you know, right. So I don't know if that resonates with the experience that you guys have had, but yeah, it's definitely, I think both of those things, I think they're very closely related. and, and they're both things that I'm I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, I'm totally got these solved. Like they're ongoing things that I'm continuing to work through for sure.

Kristin: 24:52

Okay. Chris, I'm kind of curious. 1 comment I hear from some teachers who are very, very interested in starting freelance business, or, you know, looking for work beyond the classroom is it's really hard for them to pin down what their day to day might actually look like as a freelancer. Can you take us behind the scenes a little bit and just kind of give us a rundown of what maybe an ordinary Tuesday might look like for you, or what kind of work you look forward to doing?

Chris: 25:17

No, I mean, like, in all seriousness, like, here's, here's my, like, here's my planner. Uh, I'm a person who has really good intentions of planning things really well, but 90 percent of it like lives up here. Like, I'm, I'm, really, sort of chaotic a little bit about how my days end up getting planned. and that's not a thing that I think I could recommend to everybody. Um, like, I think know yourself, like, know what you need to set up set up systems that work for you. Um, but I think what I would say, though, is. I, I would want to dial back and sort of like, look at what I think is really important, in the bigger picture. Like, I think it's really important to like, take care of yourself, how are you managing your physical and mental health? Right? I don't have like a, like a planning routine that I stick to super carefully. I mean, I probably changed my planning routine like a dozen times last year. Right. Like, I just changed it 2 days ago, but like. What is really important to me is am I getting 8 hours of sleep? Am I going to the gym every day? Am I taking my Zoloft? Am I going to therapy? Am I like, you know, there's, there's another 1, just my eating. Am I like seeing friends? Right? I think if you are taking good care of yourself. Then running your business, right. We'll sort of like fall naturally out of that. If you are not, then bad shit's going to happen. So like, that's kind of how I think about that.

Hillary: 26:44

for my kind of final question, I always like to draw the bridge between, you know, what experiences from your years teaching, or what skills as a teacher, did you develop that you think have really kind of lent themselves to. Working for yourself and running a business and and things like that. Is there anything that comes to mind of, you know, I'm really glad I had that teaching experience so that I could, you know, be better in this area in my business.

Chris: 27:13

Yeah, there's two things that are coming to mind for me. One is a skill that I had. and one is a skill that I didn't have. So the skill that I had. Was writing this is something I've thought about quite a bit, from my time, having a PhD in philosophy, like, you'll see people all the time online being like college doesn't matter. You know, it does matter. there is a significant qualitative difference between having 7 years of grad school and not right. And that's just palpable. and I'm not saying that you have to have 7 years of, philosophy grad school, but I'm saying, like, whatever that skill is for you, I have found leaning into that. Like, whenever I lean on my writing skills, or whenever I talk to people about how. My philosophy background informs my work. They just like, they just stop and they're like, Oh, that's interesting. Right. So I think that has been very, like at first I didn't think people would give a crap. Right. And the more I have like brought up my philosophy background on sales calls, or the more I've like taken time to do more writing on LinkedIn, the more that's really helped me. So I think that's something to really. Think about what your unique strengths are and really try to bring them out So that's like the thing that I did have. the thing I didn't have was sales skills. I was a crappy salesperson. I didn't know anything about sales. I didn't know how to like get clients. I didn't know how to nurture them. I didn't know how to close them. as a business person selling is your job, you need to be able to get clients. You need to be able to fill your pipeline. If you don't have clients, you do not have a business. And I think beginning business people, especially think they need to take all the courses they think they need to be building their website. Like you just need to get clients, dude. So I think learning how to sell focus on selling before you worry about all that other stuff, I would say.

Kristin: 29:04

Well, Chris, thank you so much for sharing your behind the scenes experience from teacher to successful freelance copywriter. We so enjoyed hearing from you today. can you let us know where listeners can find you online if they're curious to learn more about you?

Chris: 29:18

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, at uh, linkedin. com slash, I guess, LinkedIn How, how do you linkedin. com slash in slash C Collins, DC, I think is the URL, whatever search for Chris Collins. You'll find me along with a bunch of other Chris Collins's. And then, my website is, Christopher Collins. co.

Hillary: 29:40

we'll link to all of it in the show notes. So we will find your LinkedIn profile and put it in the show notes as well. So we can, you know, save people the hassle of sorting through all the Chris Collins's that are on there.

Chris: 29:51

There's, there's so many, but that's a whole other thing.

Kristin: 29:54

Thank you, Chris. And thank you so much to all of our listeners. We'll catch you next time on the next episode of teachers. Make the leap.

30:07

Thanks for joining us on this episode of Teachers Make the Leap. If you're excited to start your own online business so you can work from anywhere, make your own schedule, and skyrocket your earning potential, follow us on Instagram at Teachers Make the Leap, where you can download our free mini course, From Teacher to Online Business Owner. We can't wait to help you make the leap from teacher to thriving business owner. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe to the show on your favorite listening app, and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. We'll see you back here next week.